Paranormal Research

[sgpaul1973]

Originally Posted by Skepticus

Well, I don't know much about science. But I do know what I experienced from my instructor.

He had us to line up and he woudl pass his hands on both sides of our body. He siad that we should feel the energy flow through us. I did, it tingled. When he passed his hands over my head, I saw a rainbow-like light aound his hands.

Explain that!

Skep

I do have a little input on the topic of Chi. For one thing, it is being researched by researchers at the University of Utah and in a lab that I happen to provide technical support to for maintaining their computers. They have found the existence of an energy field that is fully independent of the electric impulses of the nervous system. This energy field seems to circulate between the layers of fascia tissue that wraps around each muscle and organ. They are able to monitor the flow of this energy in a very scientific way that strips away any and all illusions of it being mystical or paranormal. However, the research has yet to be able to find a way to measure or quantify the effects of this energy field. Further more, there is no set way of practicing an exercise that builds it in the same way every single time. If there isn?t a specific process that has the same effects on everyone, or, every time the process is used. So, of there isn?t a proven process for one, and, no way of measuring or quantifying effects of such an energy, nor measuring progress, then to rely on such a tool as a primary tool in your defense arsenal doesn?t make sense.

Another point I wanted to make, especially for Skep, is that nobody in this thread is debating the existence of Chi. The reasons there is resistance to posts about it while doing research for Kenpo is because Chi isn?t part of the American Kenpo curriculum. No mater if it exists or not, one thing is for sure, it just wasn?t part of American Kenpo. So, if you are going to research American Kenpo, then you should stick to the principals and concepts that the art was built upon. American Kenpo is based on the scientific principals of Physiology and Physics.

Now, having said that, I?d personally add that if you have a Chi building practice that you fallow and someday it backs your physical skill and saves your life, then great. Nobody would say otherwise. But, it just isn?t part of American Kenpo as outlined by its founder, so, arguing it becomes a moot point.

For an analogy of this point, I?ll refer to my days with Army Special Forces. As a member of the U.S. Army Special Forces, I was aware of the existence of the M1-A1 Abrams Tank. I was aware of its effectiveness in combat. But, I had no use for it. It wasn?t within the spectrum of what I did or how I worked. I couldn?t carry it with me as I parachuted out of a C-130, I couldn?t sneak around in the woods quietly with it, so I had no use for it.

Well, there?s my 2 cents on the topic.

-Paul

[Skepticus]

Here's an article from Harvard that seems to disprove altered energy fields withthe paranormal http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0103161531.htm

As for Chi not beig in Kenpo - check out Ed Parker's Infinite Insights (Volume 4 or 5) There is a chapter about chi. Furthermore, in an article in Inside Kung Fu (1979) Parker mentioned Larry Tatum as the first of his students to have developed chi (a genie in a bottle he called it).

Skepticus

[sgpaul1973]

Originally Posted by Skepticus

Here's an article from Harvard that seems to disprove altered energy fields withthe paranormal http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0103161531.htm

As for the research going on at the University of Utah, it isn't "Altered Energy Fields" that is being researched, but energy patterns within the human body and purpose and effects. Nothing paranormal about the energy the human body gives off.

As for Chi not being in Kenpo - check out Ed Parker's Infinite Insights (Volume 4 or 5) There is a chapter about chi. Furthermore, in an article in Inside Kung Fu (1979) Parker mentioned Larry Tatum as the first of his students to have developed chi (a genie in a bottle he called it).

Skepticus

If you read my post clearly, you would have noticed in the beginning, that I acknowledged that Ed Parker had talked about Chi, and had done so since the beginning. Ed Parker did in fact teach about the existence of Chi and In fact, Larry Tatum still talks about Chi. However, my point is that it isn’t part of the Kenpo Curriculum. At no point in the Kenpo lessons from the first to last, can one find an exercise designed specifically to build or enhance Chi. I personaly feel that some of the forms and techniques build it, but thats must my observation based on my own expiriences. I’m not saying that things like that weren’t taught, or practiced, but it isn’t part of the Curriculum, now or then.

I’m aware of the Chi references by Mr. Parker and Mr. Tatum. I own the a copy of just about every book Ed Parker wrote on Kenpo, including the ‘Infinite Insights’ series, and own tons of DVD footage of him doing various seminars around the country. I’ve also various seminars by Larry Tatum and Paul Mills, and both talk about Chi. Yes, Kenpo acknowledges it. My point was that it isn’t in the curriculum. It is up to you to grow and develop that as a separate pursuit because of the inability to quantify or measure it as an independent tool.

My personal feelings are that you should study it, learn it, develop it, and use it to enhance your art. But, I also understand that it is something intangible or clearly definable. So, when a council is formed to research the technical aspects of an art and its foundation of scientific principals and how they apply to the curriculum, then you would have to leave Chi out. It wouldn’t have a place in such a type of research.

In short:
1. Nobody in this thread has stated that Chi doesn’t exist.
2. Yes, Ed parker and many of his top people talked about Chi
3. No, it is not a core part of the Curriculum or founding principals

Nobody is debating the existence of Chi. However, what the research council is researching is the technical and tactical aspects of Kenpo’s past, present, & future. Chi doesn’t figure into the technical aspects, but more the areas of personal and individual growth and even spiritual development.

Nobody, including myself, wants to debate Chi. I am just simply stating that the type of research being done doesn’t have a place for it.

I hope this post clarifies points made on my previous post.

-Paul

[Lance C]

For a few posts ago:

A Pseudo-Science Alert! When people start talking about energy, but fail to mention what kind of energy they are talking about, just that there is some.

Energy can be described accurately in some descriptive ways such as:
Potential vs Kinetic, or maybe Mechanical such as electric, muscular, thermaldynamic (won't blog on here, try and keep it short)

I have studied Chinese Martial Arts on the side (apparently Kenpo has something in common there) and from Dr. Yang (an Engineer and Martial Artist)

Analysis of Shaolin China (book) pg 10
on the topic of basic training:

"The first is Li (muscular power.)....
The second is Chi, Chi is an internal energy which comes from the concentration of your Yi (mind.) When you concentrate, your Chi will reach the muscles being used and increase the efficiency.
Third is Jing." (noted as a combination of when to use Li and Chi in different proportion), possibly what some kenpoists call tiger method vs dragon method.

Basically he goes on to explain the Chi is a word that has a complex meaning on how the mind controls the body and when your timing, technique and overall training in the martial arts happens it helps with the overall effect of your physical prowess.

Pretty much he's the last word on chi, having fully explained it in several books. And what it comes down to is someone like Mr.Kevin Lamkin (don't want to leave Mr.Eric Lamkin out either) constantly training and educating people to become overall better. If Chi was some kind of undocumented phenomenon it would show up with the numbers of students they teach, correspond and lecture to. Hense the $1,000,000 reward offered by a paranormal research company.

I think through scientific method it has been determined that extremely talented and high performance athletes who have set records in human capability still fall within calculable models of the horribly inefficient things humans are.

My hypothesis is that Mr Parker researched Chi as it was a popular topic in the day, and still is today. Many people make an unethical living from proving its existence to the gullible and fickle. I like to misquote PT Barnum "There's one born every minute"


*Note: What I like to teach is the "Lamkin Method" which is a term I use to describe a relatively non-magical and straight forward system that relies on the advancement in exercise and measureable feedback that guide athletes (students) into new areas of development independantly. From what I know about Mr Kevin Lamkin is that he is a life long learner and pretty much in tune with reality and has researched far into these areas.

I posted the "Elite Fighters" fitness test to my students to see who was in the kind of Shape (Mr Eric Lamkin) had passed and most of them failed miserably. I workout nearly everyday and so did I, so did most of the jocks at the local gym.

To experience Dr.Yang's (not to be confused with the popular western tripe definition) of Chi, one must exercise smartly and regularly putting hard work and thought into your progressive development and in skill training you will see huge ability gains, however the famous army saying from an unknown source "I am not Superman" applies.

-Lance C

[sgpaul1973]

Originally Posted by Lance C

For a few posts ago:

A Pseudo-Science Alert! When people start talking about energy, but fail to mention what kind of energy they are talking about, just that there is some.

Energy can be described accurately in some descriptive ways such as:
Potential vs Kinetic, or maybe Mechanical such as electric, muscular, thermaldynamic,
-Lance C

I would agree with the statement that one would have to define what type of energy, however, as stated in my post, those researching are trying to do just that. At this point in time, all that is known about the energy field that they have found is that it is manipulated by conscious thought more so than physical action and doesn’t interact with the nervous system. It isn’t the thermal heat of the body, nor is it related to the electrical fields generated by the nervous system. Once they found a way to monitor and see the field on a screen that looks similar to a infrared scanner, but still much different, the researchers then analyzed multiple experienced practitioners of Chi Gung, Tai Chi, Yoga and a few other disciplines. They monitored them practicing their discipline as well as doing a few other things and as of yet, can only verify the presents of this energy field that passes through the body and seems independent of the bodies other energy fields.

However, that is all that has been determined to my knowledge. I provided computer maintenance for the lab that is actually doing the study and because of my interest on the topic; I ask a lot of questions while I’m there. They are more than happy to fill me in on the research and what they have found and as interesting as their finding are, there is still no determination on its what its propose is, or how it works, or even how it affects things is still being studied. There is no “pseudo science” at work here, and science always acknowledges that there is much to be learned and discovered. There is nothing mystical, magical, or Illusionary about it, however, there are many who will bank on and try to profit from the misconceptions of what Chi is what it can do.

Any primitive society in history that didn’t have a logical explanation of something would attribute the unexplained to mystical or magical phenomena or “Abilities”. Many times, science eventually provided a more logical explanation. The presence of energy is neither mystical nor magical. To somebody who lived 400 to 2000 years ago, then sure, it would have been attributed to mystical forces, and magical abilities. That sets the stage for unsavory characters to try and package these “Ancient Mystical Abilities”, and con many those who don’t know any better out of money and time.

My approach to it is that if science can’t do more than verify an additional field of energy generated by the body and manipulated by the mind. But, in no way can determine what, if any, affects it has on ones own body, or how it interacts with its environment, they why rely on it as a primary tool. As stated by both myself and Skepticus, Ed Parker, Larry Tatum, Paul Mills, and many other well know and high ranking Kenpoists who did studied under Parker all say it exists and can grow, develop, and add power to the techniques. However, I believe it wasn’t actually part of a training curriculum because of the inability to accurately measure its affects.

When I refer to a primary tool, or secondary tool, it would be easier to compare how other arts use it as a primary tool. Take arts like Aikido, Tai Chi, Pa Qua (Ba Gua), and may other “Internal Arts”, they have the practice of building Chi (or Ki) as part of a training curriculum. They also have techniques that rely on you “Channeling Chi” or “Extending Ki”. With Kenpo, it isn’t in the training Curriculum, nor does the effectiveness of any particular technique require its use. So, Kenpo was different in that it acknowledged Chi’s existence, but simply regarded it as a way of adding power to an already lethal arsenal of techniques.

In reference to Ed Parker talking about Chi because it was popular at the time. I have to say that I have reliable resources stating that he talked about it in the very early days when not only did Americans have no idea what Chi was, but many didn’t even know what Karate was. That is why the very first parker schools actually had a sign out front that billed them as ‘Judo’ in some areas to give some idea as to what was being taught there. My uncle who was a student in those days, and was until parker died, said that in his opinion, references to Chi were risky, because western minds weren’t as open as they are now, and especially to anything Asian or Mystical.

LOL…, I promise that I never purposely set out to write such long posts. But, as a researcher, writer, college student, and technical writer, I tend to go on and on as if I’m doing a research article. However, one thing I want to end on, and that is that I agree with Lance C. on many points made. On other points, I don’t disagree exactly, but have a similar yet slightly different view. However, I’m sure most people would agree on one simple point. Regardless if Chi exists or not, one shouldn’t rely on something that science cannot verify its effectiveness, that it wouldn’t be wise to rely on it. When I was with Special Forces, I never took a weapon on a deployment that I hadn’t first verified functionality and effectiveness. That would never be a good idea and would only invite the opportunity for to many things to go wrong, AKA: Murphy's Law.

-Paul

[warrior-scholar]

Don't worry about going on and on. You have plenty of people on this site with graduate and post-graduate education who don't mind reading (not to mention playing the devil's advocate on each and every point of discussion).
LOL

[sgpaul1973]

Originally Posted by warrior-scholar

Don't worry about going on and on. You have plenty of people on this site with graduate and post-graduate education who don't mind reading (not to mention playing the devil's advocate on each and every point of discussion).
LOL

Thanks, glad to see my wordiness isn’t a problem. I also like to read long posts that are full of details and examples. I also love to play devil’s advocate. Sometimes, I play devil’s advocate against my own position. That comes out in some of my posts and sometimes generates questions asking me exactly what my position is. I usually do that to illustrate that I do understand the opposing position on any one particular topic.

Thanks for the reply,
-Paul

[Lance C]

Not to mention those of us who went to community college, technical school and trade school who like to break stuff apart to see how it works.

I wrote this article a few months back for some people plagued by the inability to develop their karate.

Principles, Concepts and Ideas
by Lance Cross

Part of the excitement of being a Karate Instructor is watching the growth of the human mind, spirit and physical attributes in people. Much like any discipline there are those who are able to develop themselves into mastery. Here are some Essentials to guide the journey.
Definitions

From Dictionary.Com

Principle: a rule or law exemplified in natural phenomena, the construction or operation of a machine, the working of a system
or
an adopted rule or method for application in action: a working principle for general use.

Concept: an idea of something formed by mentally combining all its characteristics or particulars; a construct.

Idea: any conception existing in the mind as a result of mental understanding, awareness, or activity.

Idea, Concept and Principle are respective stages in a progression of knowledge developed through scientific method.

From the American Heritage Dictionary:

scientific method: The principles and empirical processes of discovery and demonstration considered characteristic of or necessary for scientific investigation, generally involving the observation of phenomena, the formulation of a hypothesis concerning the phenomena, experimentation to demonstrate the truth or falseness of the hypothesis, and a conclusion that validates or modifies the hypothesis.

This is the very basic, yet fundamental process in which all knowledge of the natural world had gone through before acceptance.

From the Encarta ® World English Dictionary:

Empirical: based on observation and experiment: based on or characterized by observation and experiment instead of theory.

Looking at the above definitions and understanding them thoroughly one comes to thinking about how all knowledge of the natural world has come about. A suggestion to the reader is that to train in American Kenpo is an exercise in knowledge development through the use of the scientific method. (Read that as experience to prove knowledge.)

Useful Tools
Research Techniques

All information requires the use of observation and imagination (based in real world physics) such that an idea in the form of motion can be isolated and dissected. This is where the hypothesis is generated, the original idea on how something is. This needs to be accurately documented on some form of media such as paper, video, pictures or sketches. This is where the pure research is done. Ideas can be from purely observation all the way to purely imaginative. Ed Parker was one to generate charts that show combinations and permutations, (for example) New Models of Basics, Techniques, Forms and Freestyle were documented. This would be an example of purely imaginative leading to research. Ed Parker traveling the world, and having the world come to him due to his reputation would allow him to see extraordinary individuals with unique abilities for him to observe, this would be the use of pure observation that lead to research. A whole spectrum in between observation and imagination constantly occurs in man?s quest for knowledge.

Peer Review

Peer Review is the process of sharing, and critiquing information, by interested people. It is a second set of eyes that look over your work. Peers often re-create your experiments and validate or invalidate your research. This is an important part of any research and should be a daily activity for Kenpo enthusiasts.

Documentation

After the research has been done, revised and satisfactory to the peer review process it is time to document the knowledge and publish it for the purpose of advancing a body of people. Whether it is a closed group of peers or open to the world would determine the method of publication. It is so unfortunate that so much information has been lost to ego, not documented or published in an ambiguous or coded manner, that we need to re-do much work that has been done for so long. This is an important part of advancing the martial arts, and an important part in not letting it corrode during times of disinterest. Popularity should not be the key in developing an art, however it is often the driving factor that a fad dictates where the interest and development goes.

Journal Keeping

Some other hints and tips on developing martial arts is keeping a journal of your activities, thoughts and feelings. Make your own history of events, successes, failures, what has clarity and what is confusing. Sometimes frustrations can make you feel good when you need to be reminded how you overcame them. Think of it as a motion design journal, and don?t forget to write down both quantitative numbers and qualitative numbers. Measurable physical attributes such as how much you can lift or how far you can run in 2 minutes keeps you on track and not likely to slip back in your training.

***End of Article***

Somehow I failed to mention the DA method of milking information (that is playing devil's advocacy) in my experience causes some animousity (spelling?) when you get someone's passion aroused about something they learned well about. I treat it with the same ethical insight as baiting bears.

-Lance (anyone want to discuss the pros and cons of devils advocacy?)

[warrior-scholar]

Lance,
I certainly don't want to leave anyone out there! My comments were actually a little jab at the academic community for spending countless hours debating for the sake of debate. I have had enough of that lifestyle for two lifetimes. I leave the detailed analysis to the more technically-minded....


P.S. As long as I ask the hard questions of my own position, then I feel comfortable asking them of others.

[Lance C]

Don't mean to be arguementative, but shouldn't we argue, that arguing takes too long?

Quick conclusions usually come to me on subjects. Then after years of questioning why THAT conclusion, it was apparent that I was right in the first place and wasted years thinking about it.


Thanks for pointing out my long windedness, I thought we were having a urination distance contest.

-Lance C