Grappling in Kenpo

[warrior-scholar]

In light of the new grappling videos, I wanted to just ask everyone about their personal experiences.

Many people out there argue that "grappling" has only been added to certain martial arts, Kenpo included, AFTER the success of MMA and NHB. Of course, if you define grappling in the broad sense of the term, then it is and always has been a part of Kenpo. What these proponents really mean to say relates to "groundfighting" and not grappling in general. Even further, they mean "groundfighting" in certain sense. A cursory glance at the more advanced techniques will reveal many, many situations in which the opponent is taken down and manipulated, albeit from a dominant position. So, when people say Kenpo doesn't include grappling they mean it in a very particular sense.

It is common sense that a striking art like Kenpo will not attempt to manipulate an opponent in the same way a jiu jitsu artist would. For that matter, a Kenpo practitioner will most likely make no purposeful attempt to fall to the ground in anything less than a completely dominant position. That said, does Kenpo prepare you to deal with the receiving end of this equation? I think we would mostly agree that a principled practitioner with proper training methods should be able to handle any situation. But, we SHOULD NOT expect a Kenpo practitioner to respond to such situations as a grappler. For this reason, the criticisms about lack of grappling in our art are somewhat unwarranted.
Make no mistake, if someone is attempting to apply an omoplata or a triangle choke, my response will NOT look anything like another grappler or wrestler. However, the grappling methods within Kenpo DO influence my decisions.

I want to hear about your personal experiences of grappling within Kenpo, especially if you began training well before the early 1990s. Perhaps you didn't look at training as Striking/Grappling/Wrestling. These false compartmentalizations annoy me personally. I grew up watching WWF. When I applied a figure four a la Ric Flair to my younger brother we found out real quick what it could really do! He ended up seeing the doctor after that little incident. I knew right away that wrestling could be very dangerous as a means of fighting. My first exposure to "groundfighting" came at a Steve Finn seminar at Sensei Rodney Finn's school in Danville around 1994. This material came from Bart Vale, but we didn't really know the difference. It was just more Kenpo training. Most of us didn't even know the UFC existed at this point. More importantly, we tried to graft that information into our already formed structure.

Now that I have broken my own rule of length, what are your experiences in this matter?

[sgpaul1973]

A very interesting topic indeed and one that I?ve often thought about myself. The interesting thing about the collection of arts I train in is that they all have many principals, concepts and even techniques in common, but approach them from different perspectives. For example, and outward wrist reversal (outward wrist twisting lock) is in every art I study, but it is applied a bit differently in each case. It?s an opportunity to see how elements found in Kenpo can be applied in different ways. My training in Aiki-Jutsu and in traditional Jujutsu (Japanese art) differs from Jui Jitsu (Brazilian art). The Japanese arts don?t go to the ground on purpose, in much the same way a Kenpo artist would avoid doing. So, both from a Kenpo perspective as well as my expanded training, it is ingrained in me to avoid being on the ground on purpose, but, know what to do if you end up there. Let?s not forget the historical connection to the Mitose families ?Kenpo Jujitsu?.

One thing the MMA people have is the advantage of knowing they are going one on one. Going to the ground in a controlled environment may not be a bad idea, but do it on the street, and while you?re down there wrestling, his 10 buddies are stomping your kidneys and teeth in. I have always admired Kenpo over other styles of Karate because of its grappling, manipulating and control aspects. Grab a traditional Karate stylist and they will do what they can to get you to let go, Grab a Kenpoist and hell prevent you from letting go while punishing him for that grab. I personally thing that we should expand training on these grappling concepts and principals, but maintain the approach that you should avoid going to the ground when you can, know what to do if you can, and recover to a standing or dominant position as quickly as possible.

-Paul

[Lance C]

We have been doing some fairly comprehensive studies on grappling at the club. The focus has been Greco-Roman and Catch Wrestling (ancestor to entertainment, collegiate and olympic wrestling) and found that American Kenpo has most of the answers to solving wrestling problems.

The main fact we study, is that "dead attacks" like grabs, locks and holds are usually precursors to devastating attacks. We both learn how to follow through these self defense attacks, and how to defend against them.

I think as was pointed out rather well in the last couple of posts, that segmenting moves into a category such as (grappling, pugilism, avoidance etc) really limits an arts sophistication. at some point everything becomes so sophisticated in each move you are probably doing all the above.

One thing that I learned from a posting a while ago, it is suprising how many Kenpo techniques work from both a standing position and lying on your back (not lazily, but in an "on your back" version of a forward bow et.c.)

Another area to look at is executing your basics from the ground, one of the young fellows (still in high-school) is fit enough to fire a jumping round house kick from a lying on his hip position and take my 6'6" head off. (He posts off his planted hand) and ends up in a near standing position after the kick fires.

I think if the MMA world allowed certain moves, there would be a big change in the public opinion of martial arts in general.

Just to mention something not-Kenpo related was watching some Madjapahit Silat ground fighting. This is the end of the arguement about pugilism on the ground with recoveries. My opinion was this is addressed in Kenpo, just not too many people work on it much.

Who problem solves anymore?

-Lance C (I do)

[warrior-scholar]

Paul,
Regarding the first part of your post, check out Marc Tedeschi's book "The Art of Holding" (He also has written similar books for striking and groundfighting) in which he demonstrates exactly your point about principled connection through a diversity of methods. He examines akido and aiki-jujitsu among others for comparison.

Ryan

[sgpaul1973]

Paul,
Regarding the first part of your post, check out Marc Tedeschi's book "The Art of Holding" (He also has written similar books for striking and groundfighting) in which he demonstrates exactly your point about principled connection through a diversity of methods. He examines akido and aiki-jujitsu among others for comparison.

Ryan
Thanks for the book recomendation. It sounds very interesting and I'm sure I'd enjoy reading a book like that. In fact, I'll take a look at what books he has available. In fact, any other books anyone would like to recomend on similar topics would be great. I've found great value in looking at the diverse ways that other arts apply similar moves. Playing with wrist and elbow locks as applied in Ninjutsu, or Kenpo, or Aiki-Jujutsu and Chin-Na has been a great benefit and any time I get an opportunity to learn from somebody who has also analyzed and/or written about the comparisons, similarities, and differences of these applied methods is an opportunity to learn something new as well as look at what I already know from a fresh perspective.

Thanks again.
-Paul

[Lance C]

I like kenpo for being a grab art. The phrase "wait till I get my hands on you" says alot about arts that maintain a hold on someone.

Here some notes I gathered about the "Kenpo" Trio. It very much is a reminder of wrestling type drills for collegiate wrestling but maintains the Kenpo system within the drill. I would like to credit Mr. Tatum for popularizing the drill.

Kenpo Trio

Partner Drill

The basis of the drill is to have your partner keep flowing into bear hugs as he will be ducking your high elbows and reapplying the bear hug from a different direction.

Hug #1 Front Bear Hug, Arms Pinned
Technique #1 Thrusting Prongs

during the technique, your opponent ducks your inward horizontal elbow near the end of the technique and circles to the left behind you into:

Hug #2 Rear Bear Hug, Arms Free
Technique #2 Crashing Wings

during the technique, your opponent ducks your outward horizontal elbow. You vary the technique by altering your weapon from a inward hammerfist to an inward ridge hand to the jaw.

Hug #3 Front Bear Hug Arms Free
Technique #3 Tripping Arrow

This technique treats the upward inward ridge hand strike (reverse handsword) to the jaw from the previous count as the initial move. You flow from this into the tripping arrow takedown.

End of sequence, be nice to your partners and switch sides with them.


I have found that this technique sequence when practiced is fairly important even though it is not part of the official curriculum, but survived due to its workability and skill building practicality.

It is important to treat the bear hugs as real world situations that are dangerous, this will develop proper power and sensitivity to: opponents in the dark, light and obscure, what weapons can be launched from point of origin, creates confidence in close range fighting.

Also recommended is to do the drill, such that the person playing the attacker goes from bear hugs to one leg pick ups et.c. such that the practitioner has many options dealing with them. This helps make it a multipurpose drill. (It also makes the person playing the attacker to start getting better at bear hugs, one leg pick ups and makes them aware of counters)

Hope others find this involved and interesting.

-Lance C

[*_hypnomindpower_*]

As a former Los Angeles Police Officer, grappling would certainly come in handy as opposed to striking. With the advent of numerous lawsuits - law enforcement personnel should be aware of how striking will lead to being sued or prosecuted. By using grappling techniques, a police officer may avoid being sued. That doesn't mean that one has to go to the ground. Though many times I've had to tackle a suspect that was running away and ground techniques would have come in handy.

Bob