Kenpo: The Original American M.M.A.

[Xperience]

Greetings All ~

Thought I might offer some food for thought. I don't know the extent of background knowledge of most reading this forum, so here's a bone. Mr.Parker attempted to validate his art by identifying with Shaolin, and American Kenpo flows like Kung-Fu. The Tracys trace their lineage back to Bushido. 'I' give credit to the Hawaiians (specifically, Wm.K.S.Chow), which my Leedo Kenpo (literally, the 'way' I teach Kenpo) format reflects. To me T.B.C. (Thunderbolt Chow), took what he learned of the Kung-Fu from his sires, Jiu-Jitsu/Karate from James Mitose, Boxing & Wrestling from the American Military stationed in HI (this was before HI became a state, mind you) onto the streets, and tested for what worked, and what didn't. The result was a real 'mixed martial art'...not a M.M.A. sport. Also along the same lines, I should think that Kajukenbo would be self-explanatory.
Now don't get me wrong, sport can be a good training tool, as long as it's not taken as the entirety of the art. For instance, the slow-motion movement of Tai Chi is thought to be what Tai Chi actually is, in most of the world; because that is the form in which it was popularized. However, in reality, the slow-motion training is but a small, yet essential aspect of actual Tai Chi training. In America, and much of the world, Karate(Kickboxing)/Jiu-Jitsu has become popularized as a sport; and like Tai Chi, this is by most, considered to be the entirety of the art. I suppose it's up to us as instructors, to enlighten the public to the fact that there is so much more; That the martial arts can actually teach us so much about life & how to live...not so much about how to cause injury, but to control aggression & live in harmony.

;) X

[Lance C]

Greetings All ~

Thought I might offer some food for thought. I don't know the extent of background knowledge of most reading this forum, so here's a bone. Mr.Parker attempted to validate his art by identifying with Shaolin, and American Kenpo flows like Kung-Fu. The Tracys trace their lineage back to Bushido. 'I' give credit to the Hawaiians (specifically, Wm.K.S.Chow), which my Leedo Kenpo (literally, the 'way' I teach Kenpo) format reflects. To me T.B.C. (Thunderbolt Chow), took what he learned of the Kung-Fu from his sires, Jiu-Jitsu/Karate from James Mitose, Boxing & Wrestling from the American Military stationed in HI (this was before HI became a state, mind you) onto the streets, and tested for what worked, and what didn't. The result was a real 'mixed martial art'...not a M.M.A. sport. Also along the same lines, I should think that Kajukenbo would be self-explanatory.
Now don't get me wrong, sport can be a good training tool, as long as it's not taken as the entirety of the art. For instance, the slow-motion movement of Tai Chi is thought to be what Tai Chi actually is, in most of the world; because that is the form in which it was popularized. However, in reality, the slow-motion training is but a small, yet essential aspect of actual Tai Chi training. In America, and much of the world, Karate(Kickboxing)/Jiu-Jitsu has become popularized as a sport; and like Tai Chi, this is by most, considered to be the entirety of the art. I suppose it's up to us as instructors, to enlighten the public to the fact that there is so much more; That the martial arts can actually teach us so much about life & how to live...not so much about how to cause injury, but to control aggression & live in harmony.

;) X

I agree with the MMA part. Studying Kenpo and taking it with the same light Mr.Parker had studied, that is looking at the possible origins and looking for more meaning. One can see the variety in which it was formed. My idea was the Mr.Parker had looked at great fighters around the world and saw why they were successful and built a system based on that type of development.

When I started studying Bando (Burmese Boxing) in an armchair fashion then finally looking at Muay Thai Boran (harsher form than is popularized) and seeing it in action in Toronto (from a training standpoint) many things from Kenpo became much more meaningful.

American Kenpo Karate is made of words from 3 language origins, English, Chinese and Japanese, which in itself suggests a mixed martial arts. I recently purchased book from a gym in Toronto that was a curriculum guide book on Jujutsu. Perhaps it was a bit "old school" but most of the techniques, with the exception of ground pins was from Kenpo self defense techniques. This suggested to me that with great probability that Kenpo had used a great deal of old school (standing) Jujitsu in its self defense techniques.

The class that used the book, taught this form of jujitsu, although most of the students were more into the MMA submissions and take downs, but their guide book was nothing short of the Jujitsu part of Kenpo-Jujitsu.


As for having students impressed with martial arts, a student of mine who really needed lessons for family protection had a success story of being good enough not to fight someone.

He explained it to me that the reason he did not fight was that his opponent even acting threatening left enough openings that he felt he could take action when something happened. He was comfortable enough, perhaps confident enough to remain calmer and ready until the problem de-escalated and the threat decided to leave without help.

I think a big part of his training was not the self defense techniques, but also the grappling in the self defense we do in class. Alot of people are worried during a confrontation of getting their pugilistic parts pinned or it taken to the ground at early stages, but when Kenpo is shown as the jujitsu it is people gain confidence from the MMA it is.

Students who take Kenpo while settling for any MA club which is in the vicinity where they live, soon realize that it contains much more of what they wanted. Some Muay Thai kickboxer wannabe's settled for Kenpo, and when they saw the moves involving Knee Kicks and Elbows were much more enthused about it. They liked the black uniforms more than the bright colourful nylon shorts after that.

-Lance

[Xperience]

Hi Guys ~

I just wanted to mention that the evolution of original Chinese Chuan Fa [g(k)ung-fu/kempo/kenpo] was boosted by ancient Indian war-arts, via Tamo. They both contain(ed) a full-spectrum of unarmed/armed technique, that was later splintered by asian nationalism(s). It only stands to reason, that they would blend rather readily & efficiently at a later date (esp. in Indonesia & Polynesia), as well as maintaining some original Indian & Chinese forms. I just prefer the Hawaiian blend; We all have our favorites, you know.

:D X

[Lance C]

Hi Guys ~

I just wanted to mention that the evolution of original Chinese Chuan Fa [g(k)ung-fu/kempo/kenpo] was boosted by ancient Indian war-arts, via Tamo. They both contain(ed) a full-spectrum of unarmed/armed technique, that was later splintered by asian nationalism(s). It only stands to reason, that they would blend rather readily & efficiently at a later date (esp. in Indonesia & Polynesia), as well as maintaining some original Indian & Chinese forms. I just prefer the Hawaiian blend; We all have our favorites, you know.

:D X

What is it with hawaii turning out great martial artists.
Kenpo, Kajukenbo, Jujitsu, Lua etc... Must be something about paradise that makes people want to practice?

-Lance C

[warrior-scholar]

I have lost some prospects and actual students because I don't promulgate MMA sport training. The image of a fighter as reflected on television sticks in their mind. "Hey man, is this an MMA school? I don't want to take krawty, it's too traditional."
[If they were to engage in TRADITIONAL forms of training I can guarantee they would leave after a week or two.]
I explain the purpose of our training and may demonstrate the uses of kenpo in the various fighting ranges, but I WILL NOT tell them what they want to hear just to make more money. The guy who wants to be tough and PROVE himself...he can go elsewhere. The guy who wants to learn SELF-DEFENSE and all that entails, is willing to leave his ego at the door, and shows up to class regularly...he can stay.

[Lance C]

I have lost some prospects and actual students because I don't promulgate MMA sport training. The image of a fighter as reflected on television sticks in their mind. "Hey man, is this an MMA school? I don't want to take krawty, it's too traditional."
[If they were to engage in TRADITIONAL forms of training I can guarantee they would leave after a week or two.]
I explain the purpose of our training and may demonstrate the uses of kenpo in the various fighting ranges, but I WILL NOT tell them what they want to hear just to make more money. The guy who wants to be tough and PROVE himself...he can go elsewhere. The guy who wants to learn SELF-DEFENSE and all that entails, is willing to leave his ego at the door, and shows up to class regularly...he can stay.

I have had two MMA wannabe's stay at the club, at first the one took it because it was the closest to his house (location, location, location) but after a belt or two he started seeing the possibilities. (I ended up knocking this guy out once, a one-shot fight) that is when he got serious about Kenpo. Although he was extremely homophobic and did not like touching other men for any reason.

The other guy was getting frustrated at matches at a weight lifting gym, so he came in. This guy was born to wrestle, he contstantly amazes me by adding in grappling as follow ups to his self defense. He is also the first guy to "test" holds and locks with immediate and decicive strength and technique. I suspect he may not be the wannabe I thought, but has it at heart.

I found that Wannabe's (gloryists, toughguyists etc..) usually do not have the committment, but have all the hype, and techno-knowledge. At a MMA gym I saw alot of Jujitsu guys do nothing but wrestle, without any of the striking techniques. Apparently wrestling is more satisfying to the athletes, who wants to get hurt in training? They sort of live the dream in a minimalist way.

It is the same psychology that sells souvenirs after seeing something amazing. You need to buy a part of it, or attach it to your ego because you thought well of it. Much like wrestling, Fight Sports (not so much western boxing) you get really bored with watching it after studying something legitimate. It is not as impressive to say, when your perceptive speed is fast enough, and you know something about finishing a fight, it seems a little jeuvenille, not to mention the "stunt man's soap opera" that goes on between.

-Lance

[Xperience]

What is it with hawaii turning out great martial artists.
Kenpo, Kajukenbo, Jujitsu, Lua etc... Must be something about paradise that makes people want to practice?

-Lance C

Hi L-C ~
I think that it may be that polynesians, indonesians, africans/afromericans, and frontier-types (amerindians & rednecks...I'm 1/4 Cherokee & 1/4 redneck, myself) aren't that far from their 'tribal/natural' roots. They seem to be aggressive by nature. That's why I stress self-defense over sport; For those who aren't aggressive by nature. The more aggressive types don't need to learn to defend themselves. They need to burn their aggression off at MMA gyms. It's just a theory.

:) X

[Xperience]

I have lost some prospects and actual students because I don't promulgate MMA sport training. The image of a fighter as reflected on television sticks in their mind. "Hey man, is this an MMA school? I don't want to take krawty, it's too traditional."
[If they were to engage in TRADITIONAL forms of training I can guarantee they would leave after a week or two.]
I explain the purpose of our training and may demonstrate the uses of kenpo in the various fighting ranges, but I WILL NOT tell them what they want to hear just to make more money. The guy who wants to be tough and PROVE himself...he can go elsewhere. The guy who wants to learn SELF-DEFENSE and all that entails, is willing to leave his ego at the door, and shows up to class regularly...he can stay.

Hi w-s ~
Good deal warrior-scholar. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one that doesn't jump on every 'martial fad bandwagon' that comes rolling along. However, a lot of arts that became fads, were already part of my curriculum. New things are always worth a look; but jumping horses in the middle of the stream, for the sake of profit, is rather questionable. Maintaining your martial integrity can cost new students, but it sure keeps the ones you already teach from getting disillusioned; and that's an important thing. Keep up the good work.

;) X

[Lance C]

Hi L-C ~
I think that it may be that polynesians, indonesians, africans/afromericans, and frontier-types (amerindians & rednecks...I'm 1/4 Cherokee & 1/4 redneck, myself) aren't that far from their 'tribal/natural' roots. They seem to be aggressive by nature. That's why I stress self-defense over sport; For those who aren't aggressive by nature. The more aggressive types don't need to learn to defend themselves. They need to burn their aggression off at MMA gyms. It's just a theory.

:) X

So us passive types, hmmm my ancestry is 1/2 Dutch and 1/2 Maltese (parents maybe born in respective countries. Although I think the over apologetic, soft spoken nature comes from my environment since I live in small town Canada. Having both parents over 6' and being 6'6" and 300 lbs never needed to learn how to be brash or agressive.

I just like every bit of Kenpo. It is the development of self in many ways that is the satisfaction. (Maybe Mic Jagger wouldn't have written the song "Satisfaction" if he studied Kenpo :)

-Lance

[pigram86]

So us passive types, hmmm my ancestry is 1/2 Dutch and 1/2 Maltese (parents maybe born in respective countries. Although I think the over apologetic, soft spoken nature comes from my environment since I live in small town Canada. Having both parents over 6' and being 6'6" and 300 lbs never needed to learn how to be brash or agressive.

I just like every bit of Kenpo. It is the development of self in many ways that is the satisfaction. (Maybe Mic Jagger wouldn't have written the song "Satisfaction" if he studied Kenpo :)

-Lance
Passive types? I think Kenpo has made me more in control, but not passive.

[Xperience]

Passive types? I think Kenpo has made me more in control, but not passive.


Passive &/or aggressive is relative to the circumstance. All one can do is be nice, until it's time not to be nice. That's one good thing about Kenpo, the range of technique (the mix of martial arts, if you will) allows for a range of responses; although perp-control is generally preferred over damage. Lawsuits can be expensive you know; plus it would be a downright shame to be sued by an assailant, and loose due to overkill.
Anyway, I would like to see a little more humble-over-ego in the MA community, wouldn't you(?). However, sport MMA does seem to suit those of highly competitive nature. I guess it's all good; I just wish people were more perceptive of street-vs-sport. Maybe ignorance is bliss, until reality kicks 'em in the nards; Who knows(?). The Shadow knows!
:D X

[pigram86]

Passive &/or aggressive is relative to the circumstance. All one can do is be nice, until it's time not to be nice. That's one good thing about Kenpo, the range of technique (the mix of martial arts, if you will) allows for a range of responses; although perp-control is generally preferred over damage. Lawsuits can be expensive you know; plus it would be a downright shame to be sued by an assailant, and loose due to overkill.
Anyway, I would like to see a little more humble-over-ego in the MA community, wouldn't you(?). However, sport MMA does seem to suit those of highly competitive nature. I guess it's all good; I just wish people were more perceptive of street-vs-sport. Maybe ignorance is bliss, until reality kicks 'em in the nards; Who knows(?). The Shadow knows!
:D X
X

I agree there is a time to be nice and then there times not to be. Lawsuits are very exspensive. i agree that egos are bad. This MMA stuff is very new to me since i was out for 12 years. But after doing some research and talking with a coworker that trains in a version of kenpo/BJJ/Hapkido, he actually does MMA. I have not actually trained with him, but he seems to like it. his instructor is actually thinking about starting an MMA class after their Kenpo classes. I guess it depends on what one wants to teach and if you like it. We just need to remember it is just a sport. To me it just looks like a street fight. One on top beating the heck out of the other; I believe they call that ground and pound now. Funny how something I did back in my youth actually has a name now.
What works in the cage may or may not work in the street. Personally I try never to go to the ground while on the street. But if i have to, I am getting up as fast as i can. The street adds in the enviromental factors that can't be realized in a cage. But to test what you have learned, why not jump in a cage and try. I mean I personally had to feel it work to apprieciate it. I have used my training once and only once in a real fight, that is how I know it works. I reacted without thinking and it actually scared me on what kind of damage I could generate, so now I avoid all confrontations unless given no choice. But without having tested it, there would have been doubt on does it really work. So I will ask again, why not test it in a cage?

[warrior-scholar]

Why not test it in the cage?
Well, I for one don't want to take a hard beating in a limited situation. It's one thing to take some good shots in sparring or some good throws here and there...
Despite factors of control etc., if someone is beating the crap out of me I am not going to take it lightly. Maybe the guy who can go in there and remove the illegal strikes from his repertoire is a better man or a more "controlled fighter" than I am. One could look at the whole MMA sport fighting as just another training drill like rondori, kickboxing, lock flows etc. However, the amount of damage and pain incurred in MMA sport fighting is the same reason I won't full contact box or kickbox. That is why I don't test it in the cage...but that's just me. Am I a wimp? Is the guy who goes in there and gets the crud beat out of him a tough guy? Maybe he is just delusional or likes pain? For every guy that steps in the cage I can guarantee you he knows 2 or 3 people in his training camp or circle of martial artists who could rip him apart, but for whatever reason choose not to inflict pain on others.
That said, if any of you guys decide to go pro in MMA let us know if you want training partners!!! :)

[Lance C]

All,

From my experience most of the MMA guys I know (which is few) have a reality check and know what they are capable of inside the octagon and outside the octagon. The problem with MMA is that fighters want to emulate what they have seen on T.V. and be the new "Juke Box Hero, with Starts in his Eyes" (the band Foreigner?) they try and look, live and be what they are star struck with. They are also usually branded towards a fighter (or two) they logic about, and follow in their mold. They have a dream, and there is a very expenive but attainable path to it.

We have some titles for some problematic martial arts professionals:
1) Kenpo Clown (Mr.Kevin Lamkin suggested this one)

2) Sho'Nuff (from Berry Gordy's Movie "The Last Dragon")

3) Mr Rourke (the guy that fulfilled fantasies on "Fantasy Island")

4) Dude (short for Dude Sweater, macho, egotistical) like Ben Stiller's character from the Movie "Dodgeball")

5) Sparkplug, guy who runs the gym but never uses it, often is sparkplug shaped. (Like me!)

The kenpo clown will do anything to teach you (many times for big $$$), he doesn't really know what he is teaching, just that it has to do something with the magic of Ed Parker and his Kenpo Karate.

Sho'Nuff is the guy who wants to be boss for the sake of being the boss, like the horrible slang for (Sure Enough!) it is, he has his ***** patrol trying to pump him up for his own benefit and he really, really wants to be the shogun of harlem, er Wallaceburg, er where every he lives.

Mr Rourke caters to young minds who are eager to live the dream. Sometimes they are not too bad, and sometimes they really take advantage. Dream Fullfillment may not happen, but you still pay. Rourke's can often let you live a lie.

Guys who are macho and need to slap each other's bottoms and pump it up and need dare's to lift weights spend more time woofing it up than actually working on some skills. They have been cultured to behave in almost embarrassing and non-productive ways, but it is the Dudes! Rah!

Probably the most like me, stuck in life sparkplug shaped, although I work at it, cardio watch strapped on, training bra, er chest monitor strapped on.... Some professionals have never used the equipment or done the drills. May have a good comprehension of the material, but nothing beats a demonstration. Be in the best shape you need to be in.


As Todd suggested the best way to learn about something is to feel it. Push some of your personal limits and you will get to new levels.

-Lance

[warrior-scholar]

I have no problem with what has been said. However, there are limitations to the whole "THE BEST WAY TO LEARN IS FEEL SOMETHING" method. I don't think anyone of us would want to take a couple of whacks from a baseball bat to FEEL how that can shatter your bones. I don't need any extra injuries that I would probably incur from full contact fighting. Yes, you do have to push your limits, but it is not necessary to push them in a cage to find out if it works or not...that was my only point.

Don't forget the RexKwonDo instructor type who seems to be a conglomerate of several of your types. :p

[JamesS]

I have no problem with what has been said. However, there are limitations to the whole "THE BEST WAY TO LEARN IS FEEL SOMETHING" method. I don't think anyone of us would want to take a couple of whacks from a baseball bat to FEEL how that can shatter your bones. I don't need any extra injuries that I would probably incur from full contact fighting. Yes, you do have to push your limits, but it is not necessary to push them in a cage to find out if it works or not...that was my only point.

Don't forget the RexKwonDo instructor type who seems to be a conglomerate of several of your types. :p

BOW TO YOUR SENSAI!!!

[Xperience]

Gentlemen ~

It seems to me, that there may be a way of looking at the practice of MMA technique more amicably; but first of all, a little qualification may be in order. Martial Arts in America, or Kenpo at least, seem to 'totally' segregate the different facets of martial arts training; i.e., Self-Defense Techniques are for 'self-defense training', Freestyle Sparring (Sport Kickboxing) is for 'interactive skills development', and Kata/Forms Practice is for development of 'finesse of movement'. Along the same lines, MMA seems to be the new expanded version of Sport Kickboxing. My main concern is that too much time is allowed for wallowing around on the ground; which can be a bad habit to get into, for street application. I would be more comfortable with a 'short-duration groundwork allowance', promoting 'speed-submissions w/quick footing-recovery'...more realistic for the street.
Anyway, when 'I' teach, I try not to segregate the different facets of training so much, but attempt instead, to tie them together. So, in 'this' instance, one might start with the limited MMA techniques, then expand/link them to the more extensive Kenpo technique; or as previously mentioned, one might try to adapt already familiar Kenpo technique for MMA application, or both. But then again, I've put together most of the katas I teach, the self-defense techniques I teach are drawn 'directly' from the katas; and as I've previously mentioned, I teach my students to break the techniques down & adapt them for application from various positions (esp the ground). I have a little different approach to 'interactive skills training' (sparring) as well, but I won't get into that at the moment. Just offering a little more food for thought.

;) X

[warrior-scholar]

Thanks for the post X. I hope I wasn't coming across roughly...merely providing MY reasons for why I don't desire to go into the cage. I have been in so many of these arguments on MMA boards that the negativity I generally receive may be rubbing off on me.
Anyway, no offense meant to anyone... :)

[pigram86]

Guys,

I'm not saying that we need to go into the cage, but merely we shouldn't look down upon them because they do fight in a cage.

At my age, i wouldn't step in there right now. But in my teens or early twenties, I probably would have. Just my personality. I wasn't even studing MA back then, so it would have been fun.

As far as my statement on you have to feel to believe. I still believe this. Unfortunately, I have been hit with bats, pipes, chairs, bottles, but the most outrageous a metal garbage can. I used to be very wild before learning Kenpo. I have been jumped by multiple people and have had my block knocked off in more than one occasion. I have won some of these also. But my point is that there is a difference between sparring and real life. If you have never had to test your training, great. I hope you never have to. However, once you have felt a bare knuckle strike on your face, you never forget. Until, you feel your fist making contact with something real, its hard to put into words, it's just different. In sparring, you know your opponent, you kind of know what he is going to do. But in a real fight, you don't know the person, so you just have to seek and destroy him. If you dance around, more than likely, you will get jumped from behind and then it's 2 on one. then you end up on the ground getting your ribs kicked in. Strike hard and fast, then go to the next.

How many of you have practice kicks and strikes in the air? How many pull kicks and strikes while sparring? You fight the way you train. If you train that way, you will fight that way. I personally do everything on a bag. That is the only way for me to simulate a person since I train alone.

I hope I am not being to rough, but I don't think MMA is either bad or good, to each the own. Again just my .02

[warrior-scholar]

Greetings,
"You fight the way you train. If you train that way, you will fight that way."
(I swear this will be my last post on this topic! ;) )

I am glad you brought that up!
For this very reason I won't step into a cage and limit my fighting options, because that would condition me to fight that way. In my case I find it better to minimize pain induced and allow myself all options. That means that even in sparring I won't rule out illegal strikes etc, but with my partner's safety in mind it will certainly affect how I use them. Same thing with knife work. I certainly can't cut and be cut on a regular basis, so this will affect HOW I fight to a certain degree. However, it will also allow me to have a much longer shelf life so to speak.

My thoughts on this topic were a response to WHY I don't fight in the cage.
To recapitulate:
1) Because I don't deem it a necessary part of my training to incur large amounts of pain for sport (We get plenty of that from incidental strikes in class hehe)
2) Because I fight like I train, which means I would be disqualified...

I certainly don't look down on guys who want to jump in there. In fact, if any of my guys want to do it, then I will prepare them in the best possible way.
Peace out

BTW One of the best ways to get hit by wild punches from people you aren't comfortable sparring with is to let the white and yellow belts come after you!!! I have probably received more injuries from these maniacs than all the intermediate belts combined.

[JamesS]

Greetings,
"You fight the way you train. If you train that way, you will fight that way."
(I swear this will be my last post on this topic! ;) )

I am glad you brought that up!
For this very reason I won't step into a cage and limit my fighting options, because that would condition me to fight that way. In my case I find it better to minimize pain induced and allow myself all options. That means that even in sparring I won't rule out illegal strikes etc, but with my partner's safety in mind it will certainly affect how I use them. Same thing with knife work. I certainly can't cut and be cut on a regular basis, so this will affect HOW I fight to a certain degree. However, it will also allow me to have a much longer shelf life so to speak.

My thoughts on this topic were a response to WHY I don't fight in the cage.
To recapitulate:
1) Because I don't deem it a necessary part of my training to incur large amounts of pain for sport (We get plenty of that from incidental strikes in class hehe)
2) Because I fight like I train, which means I would be disqualified...

I certainly don't look down on guys who want to jump in there. In fact, if any of my guys want to do it, then I will prepare them in the best possible way.
Peace out

BTW One of the best ways to get hit by wild punches from people you aren't comfortable sparring with is to let the white and yellow belts come after you!!! I have probably received more injuries from these maniacs than all the intermediate belts combined.

I feel the same way you do.
Your absolutely correct about those yellow belt groin kicking, handsword slipping maniacs.
God bless em!

James

[profesormental]

Greetings.

One of my begginner students has the "Flying Glasses" technique... anyone the wears glasses while running drills with him gets to see their glasses flying!

Anyway, as I've mentioned before, self defense is not the same as dueling.

The survival/combat mentality is different from sporting/domination mentality.

I was watching many "street fight" videos (well, they were fighting on the streets...). In many instances, whenever the combatants set up for a fight, it could mostly have easily been de-escalated and no violence would've occurred if one of the participants had real self defense/survival mentality with some avoidance technologies...

They didn't really fear for their lives!!! There wasn't a real life threat. In that case, MMA methodologies work good...

Many of these people were dueling.

If real killing intent was part of it, the rules of engagement would change.

Interesting thread.

Juan M. Mercado

[Xperience]

Greetings.

One of my begginner students has the "Flying Glasses" technique... anyone the wears glasses while running drills with him gets to see their glasses flying!

Anyway, as I've mentioned before, self defense is not the same as dueling.

The survival/combat mentality is different from sporting/domination mentality.

I was watching many "street fight" videos (well, they were fighting on the streets...). In many instances, whenever the combatants set up for a fight, it could mostly have easily been de-escalated and no violence would've occurred if one of the participants had real self defense/survival mentality with some avoidance technologies...

They didn't really fear for their lives!!! There wasn't a real life threat. In that case, MMA methodologies work good...

Many of these people were dueling.

If real killing intent was part of it, the rules of engagement would change.

Interesting thread.

Juan M. Mercado


Hi prof' ~
I hear what you're saying. The rub comes, with the general public's concept of martial arts, in that the martial arts have been popularized as sport; and they don't know the difference between sport & combat, unless they've experienced 'real' combat, which apparently few have. It doesn't help that the sport is referred to as Mixed Martial Arts, rather than Mixed Martial Sport; It tends to confuse the general public, who are a little dazed & confused to begin with. I guess that the best we can do as instructors of actual 'martial arts' is to try to help enlighten them, or at least try to help them bridge the gap between sport & 'real' combat. It's just that most people (or Americans, anyway) tend to get more caught up in the current fads, rather than dealing with reality. Their attention span is too short to stick with something, in order to get to the deeper meaning or function. What's an instructor to do? You're kind of stuck with going with the fads, if you have to make a living from teaching. We're (You, the Lamkin Bros, & I, at least) are fortunate in the fact, that we make our living otherwise, and don't have to pander to the fads; but are free to present the 'arts' in their true light. It's just that, with all the fad pandering, it's hard for the general public to know the difference; until they've experienced it for themselves. I think that we just may have our work cut out for us. Oh well, it's something (worthy) to do.
;) X

[Lance C]

Hi prof' ~
I hear what you're saying. The rub comes, with the general public's concept of martial arts, in that the martial arts have been popularized as sport; and they don't know the difference between sport & combat, unless they've experienced 'real' combat, which apparently few have. It doesn't help that the sport is referred to as Mixed Martial Arts, rather than Mixed Martial Sport; It tends to confuse the general public, who are a little dazed & confused to begin with. I guess that the best we can do as instructors of actual 'martial arts' is to try to help enlighten them, or at least try to help them bridge the gap between sport & 'real' combat. It's just that most people (or Americans, anyway) tend to get more caught up in the current fads, rather than dealing with reality. Their attention span is too short to stick with something, in order to get to the deeper meaning or function. What's an instructor to do? You're kind of stuck with going with the fads, if you have to make a living from teaching. We're (You, the Lamkin Bros, & I, at least) are fortunate in the fact, that we make our living otherwise, and don't have to pander to the fads; but are free to present the 'arts' in their true light. It's just that, with all the fad pandering, it's hard for the general public to know the difference; until they've experienced it for themselves. I think that we just may have our work cut out for us. Oh well, it's something (worthy) to do.
;) X

Wanna know who has actually been in a fight, they are the one's who practice running (the hurdles?), they have been there and know the value of being in one piece. The duelists are the guys who want to stand their ground and duke it out.

I may not be a runner, but even chicken's can fly when scared! I just remember how ill I became after being in the middle of a big fight, running seems healthier and more reasonable. As the song goes "Know when to hold 'em, when to walk away and when to run!"

Most of my students are quite satisfied with what I teach, some people have expectations that I cannot match (ie line up and do basics for the whole time) which is no worry. The students have shown great growth in many areas and appreciate what it does for them, and as a bonus, it is good self defense, at all levels.

Recently some Muay Thai Boran guys called ME harsh demonstrating in the ring! At lease they invited me back!

-Lance

[profesormental]

Greetings.

"Martial arts" business is to provide a product that is palatable to the client and that the client gets what he wants. What the client wants varies, and to stay in business you have to be a good business man.

Personal Combat Training and Combat Sciences deal with something strange and weird that I like to call "reality" and "results".

For me, self defense, survival and personal combat come first. Sport comes later if wanted.

As a businessman you can do the business and have a special group for the real thing.

Unfortunately, many think they are training the real thing... until it doesn't work... which will probably not happen since there is a small probability that the person would use it... (there are places where you WILL use it... yet in those cases you learn fast what works and what doesn't...).

Note that the "real" thing... which I will refer to as the Elite training, is NOT for everyone. And that is ok!!

There should be explicit levels of commitment so you know what you know and you realistically gauge your skills and the effort you're willing to put into it.

For example, you have 3 levels:

Advanced Training is a low commitment level training in which the pace of training is relatively comfortable, low time commitment in which you develop about 40% to 60% of your maximum capacity in the space of a year or two.

Expert Training is a mid level commitment training in which the effort is noticeable physically and mentally. More time must be dedicated to the pursuit of excellence and very sophisticated feats of skill are obtained. You develop 60% to 80% of your maximum performance capacity in the space of one or two years.

Elite Training is a High commitment level training which is geared to maximize your potential. It requires considerable effort with mental, physical and emotional focus. Excellence and Integrity is mandatory, as well as dedication and loads of motivation to become Elite. You develop 80% to 100% of your physical and mental performance capacity while demonstrating high level combat feats within one to two years.

Note that not everyone can start at Elite level training, so they start at Advanced training, graduate to Expert Training then feel ready and more accustomed to Elite training.

Thus an Elite fighter, if training full force and gradually to maintain a balanced life, would take from 3 to 6 years. Of course not everyone has what it takes to reach the Elite level and maintain such a commitment... and that is ok.

Enjoy!!

Juan M. Mercado