Where'd That (B.J.J.) Stat Come From (?)

[Xperience]

Greetings M.M.A.(& B.J.J.) Fans ~

First of all, let me qualify my point-of-view by stating that my M.A. background started w/grappling (Freestyle Wrestling, Judo, & B.J.J.). However, what I'd like to know, is how do the B.J.J. guys know that 90-95% (depending on who you talk to) of all fights go to the ground? I mean, exactly how do they arrive at that(those) statistic(s)? Is there some secret organization (with pen & clipboard) that can tune-in on every fight in the world, as they occur, to take notes? The only fights that I've had, never went to the ground for any length of time; and I'm good on the ground. I'm just better at standing over the other guy, after he's hit the ground; and it seems to me, that's the place to be (looking down). Anybody out there got a clue(?); I'm just curious.

;) X

[Lance C]

Greetings M.M.A.(& B.J.J.) Fans ~

First of all, let me qualify my point-of-view by stating that my M.A. background started w/grappling (Freestyle Wrestling, Judo, & B.J.J.). However, what I'd like to know, is how do the B.J.J. guys know that 90-95% (depending on who you talk to) of all fights go to the ground? I mean, exactly how do they arrive at that(those) statistic(s)? Is there some secret organization (with pen & clipboard) that can tune-in on every fight in the world, as they occur, to take notes? The only fights that I've had, never went to the ground for any length of time; and I'm good on the ground. I'm just better at standing over the other guy, after he's hit the ground; and it seems to me, that's the place to be (looking down). Anybody out there got a clue(?); I'm just curious.

;) X

From my experience all fighters are usually on the ground, gravity keeps them there ;) Leaps and hops count for the 5% (airbourne maneuvers)

There are some places in the world where it is imperative to take your opponent to the ground, some Silat practioners take you down in the tall grass and dismember you much like a lion would, your friends can hear you yelling, but never see where you went down.

My experience is that a strong willed fighter with some skill has a high success rate on staying upright during a fight. David German had made a 4 video set where he demonstrates various grappling arts intermingled with Kenpo. to paraphrase a favourite line "sometimes you need to hide under someone and take a break" he was always in control.

My personal idea is never to be prone except during risk of gunfire. Which does not mean that I do not practice prone, prone toughens you up in new ways.




-Lance C

[Xperience]

From my experience all fighters are usually on the ground, gravity keeps them there ;) Leaps and hops count for the 5% (airbourne maneuvers)

There are some places in the world where it is imperative to take your opponent to the ground, some Silat practioners take you down in the tall grass and dismember you much like a lion would, your friends can hear you yelling, but never see where you went down.

My experience is that a strong willed fighter with some skill has a high success rate on staying upright during a fight. David German had made a 4 video set where he demonstrates various grappling arts intermingled with Kenpo. to paraphrase a favourite line "sometimes you need to hide under someone and take a break" he was always in control.

My personal idea is never to be prone except during risk of gunfire. Which does not mean that I do not practice prone, prone toughens you up in new ways.




-Lance C




Hi LC ~

I gotta hand it to ya, that gravity thing was pretty witty. To me, Kenpo is a 3D art, and groundwork is important; espacially the 'rebounding' from the ground part. I just get a kick out of it, when the BJJ guys whip out that "95% end on the ground" thing, like it's a well established fact. So who did the survey? Anyway, gotta go, so play nice & don't get your cloths dirty kids.

;) X

[warrior-scholar]

Hey X,
I know you are a very intelligent and experienced practitioner, so I know you already know the answer to this question. They exaggerate claims like so many to draw people to their art. I have to admit, the Royce Grace line of BJJ has been extremely successful in convincing people they are THE BEST. Set up tournament fights that favor your style of fighting and hey, who can argue? Even as others have come in and discounted the claim of superiority, they continue to make it...that's what bugs me the most. When a guy comes in and takes the name "Gracie Killer" and doesn't lose a single fight to anyone in your fight camp...I mean, that should instill a dose of humility!!! I love some BJJ concepts!!! What i hate is the Brazilian Machismo mixed in (I don't know the Portuguese word for that).

One quick question. You said your start was in wrestling and BJJ, but I wasn't aware of too many Americans training ACTUAL BJJ that long ago. Did you mean japanese jiu-jitsu? Just a minor clarification.

Recently visited Sam Conver's school in Louisville, KY and had a great time. I gave a brief seminar on application of actual American Kenpo techniques from the ground. Pain-Control-Escape was my mantra and POOF...magically I ain't on the ground anymore. I guess since technically my opponent was on the ground the fight "ENDED" on the ground. Maybe we WILL go to the ground for a brief time, but I don't plan on staying there. I have many nasty ways of staying in my game plan...THANKS KENPO...YOU'RE THE GREATEST! :p

[Lance C]

Hi LC ~

I gotta hand it to ya, that gravity thing was pretty witty. To me, Kenpo is a 3D art, and groundwork is important; espacially the 'rebounding' from the ground part. I just get a kick out of it, when the BJJ guys whip out that "95% end on the ground" thing, like it's a well established fact. So who did the survey? Anyway, gotta go, so play nice & don't get your cloths dirty kids.

;) X

I love the hands on part with the "gravitational check" using your knee as a downward vertical (thrusting?) knee kick to a prone opponent, and rebounding ;) As fun as one legged hops on the prone opponent as you make your superhero escape. (It works like carpet bombing!)

Many urban legends are abound in the real world. People really limit themselves by making generalizations about the martial arts. Any confrontation either guided by rules or anything goes can only be described incidentally. Here are some dewsies many have come across in class:

1) Punching to the nose can drive it into the brain and cause death.
2) 95% of fights end up on the ground. (tribute to X)
3) Karate vs Street fighter, Karate will loose everytime.
4) Women who get hit in training will get Breast Cancer (Uteran Cancer)
5) Karate is no good cause everyone uses weapons
6) Chi No Touch Knockouts
7) Pugilism vs Wrestling (or Karate vs Tae Kwon Do or some other arguement)

1) Answer, always wondered how such a small nasal bone could break off and penetrate the rather large space behind your face called the sinus cavity and make it through bone into the brain and do enough damage to kill. Had an uncle (not actually related to me) who had been shot in WWII with a nickle bullet that punched a hole clean through his head. He had brain damage, but went on living a good life for many years, the result of loosing some brain tissue and having much of it damaged from bruising it caused... a speach impediment and occasional dizzyness with mild confusion. He lived another 50 years.

2) Answer, only if both opponents try for it, or if rare circumstances occur (like fighting on ice)

3) Usually depends who trained longer and harder, Karate guys usually train harder and longer. Never actually met someone who was a streetfighter, think its pretty rare to find one.

4) Checked with the Cancer Society of America, they say there are 2 types of causes for brest cancer, one is a mutated gene caused by radiation, or some infections diseases. Anything that causes genetic changes in cells. Nothing was said about Karate. Think this was one started by macho dudes not wanting to get their butts kicked by girls. (Yes Girls can Fight!)

5) All the years I have witnessed actual fights, or talked to someone afterwords, probably about 3%-5% of them involved a weapon, which usually turned ugly for the person with the weapon since the police or security dealt with the incident.

6) George Lucas invented the Force, apparently if you are any kind of master you can use it. Recently I did a chi yell and knocked someone out in class both to their amazement and to the audience. Then I did a Pen and Teller and ruined the demonstration for the Fantasy Heads. Read Dr. Yang, Zwing-Ming's books on Chin-Na where he gives a rational explanation of what Chi means to him. This sort of debunks the force.

7) Us and Them arguements, my response is "May the Better Fighter Win!" its time to look at individuals, Ed Parker, Bruce Lee, many other rational fighters want to know how people win, they look at it in great detail on an individual basis. To look at other systems is to not see how someone makes it work. Look at the individual fighters and see what makes them tick. I am big into research in this manner. I found out many great things and revolutionized MYSELF by following scientific method, methods of observation, looking around and documenting things. This is how you become comprehensive instead of aprehensive (maybe a Bruce Lee Quote)

Speaking liberally about Kenpo, I teach Kenpo because my belief is that the "System" allows students to learn concepts and principles, then get the experience of using them. This has been hard for fighters since the dawn of man, since your mind knows, but you forget about it when the pressure is on. Kenpo allows for experience in the concepts, principles and lets the student generate ideas. Take a technique, memorize it, then find out why it works, then find out how to gum it up or slip it. That experience part adds up so much more than the system itself. Like a roadmap, it shows you where to go, but it doesn't show you the sights you will see.

(Need an orange crate to stand on, starting to get preachy again.)

As urban legends go, most of them are to discourage students from the outside or to make a pep rally from the inside. Either way they detract from society in general.


Keep up the training!

(My cardio watch is working me out great, finally realized that I was dogging my exercises much like I accuse students in class, time to eat my own words)

[Lance C]

Hey X,
I know you are a very intelligent and experienced practitioner, so I know you already know the answer to this question. They exaggerate claims like so many to draw people to their art. I have to admit, the Royce Grace line of BJJ has been extremely successful in convincing people they are THE BEST. Set up tournament fights that favor your style of fighting and hey, who can argue? Even as others have come in and discounted the claim of superiority, they continue to make it...that's what bugs me the most. When a guy comes in and takes the name "Gracie Killer" and doesn't lose a single fight to anyone in your fight camp...I mean, that should instill a dose of humility!!! I love some BJJ concepts!!! What i hate is the Brazilian Machismo mixed in (I don't know the Portuguese word for that).

One quick question. You said your start was in wrestling and BJJ, but I wasn't aware of too many Americans training ACTUAL BJJ that long ago. Did you mean japanese jiu-jitsu? Just a minor clarification.

Recently visited Sam Conver's school in Louisville, KY and had a great time. I gave a brief seminar on application of actual American Kenpo techniques from the ground. Pain-Control-Escape was my mantra and POOF...magically I ain't on the ground anymore. I guess since technically my opponent was on the ground the fight "ENDED" on the ground. Maybe we WILL go to the ground for a brief time, but I don't plan on staying there. I have many nasty ways of staying in my game plan...THANKS KENPO...YOU'RE THE GREATEST! :p


Getting up from the ground is an all important aspect of fighting. Can you give us an example of Pain-Control-Escape?

My philosophy is perhaps more pugilistic in nature, however as Kenpoists I think we all know how to hit anywhere, anytime. I always thought Lua had an interesting influence to Kenpo with pinches and dislocations that are often over looked by martial artists when taken to the ground.

The problem with BJJ is that it is now being taken out of context due to popularity of the sport. Even the big fight shows are starting to dwindle, they are starting to run out of something new, and counters to counters are starting to run like scripts that the audience already knows. This is an enigma wrestling and the fight shows are trying to deal with, but starting the stuntman soap opera. They try and create arguements and issues, as well as personal stories to make it interesting.

Look at the Colleseum in Rome, it escalated into full sized naval battles in a flooded arena with ships set on fire.

"If thou bleedest, thou art doing it right" old navy saying.

"Its all fun and games until someone looses and eye... then its a sport"

Note: I am one for safe training. Just trying to illustrate how many people do not try anymore, but remain doing what they do half heartedly.


-Lance

[warrior-scholar]

Hey Lance,
I can supply you with a pulpit if you want to preach some more!!! AMEN AMEN to what you have written.

Pain-Control-Escape
Nothing novel there, just making reference to the use of ACTUAL American Kenpo techniques. Although I too have studied wrestling and ground fighting extensively, the kenpoist in me strives to remain upright.
Example: Snapping Twig - Assume a bad position for yourself (on your back) and a good one for your opponent (Full Mount). The opponent could be choking you or raining down punches from this position.

PAIN = using a hip thrust try and bring the opponent closer to you and hopefully forcing them to create a brace with their hands on the ground. AS the opponent extends the arms to brace or EVEN possibly gives you a lazy punch, attempt PAIN compliance with the neutralization maneuver from Snapping Twig (OBVIOUSLY we have to remain free and fluid with these applications). One could continue to induce pain via a sweeping maneuver of the trapped arm with a crane beak as in the actual technique - this could give you an amount of control OR allow you to strike the opponent with the next move, but in modified fashion. In other words, continue the motion of your clear and strike the opponent's face, but NOT with a Raking Hammerfist...instead an inward claw or an Eagle's Beak to the temple. One could also use the OPPOSITE hand to include the THRUSTING HANDSWORD in the technique. It would cause PAIN and possibly keep enough DISTANCE between you and the opponent for you to effectively deliver the claw.
CONTROL = WHILE you are striking the opponent as described, you can use hip movement and thrusts to create imbalance and attempt the BRIDGE maneuver. The pain will hopefully give you CONTROL of a limb and thus make the BRIDGE a better possibility.
ESCAPE = Hopefully the PAIN + CONTROL will allow you to escape the down position or FORCE your opponent to remove himself from the mount.

The possibilities are ENDLESS, but you can see that I have tried to keep the spirit of the actual technique intact. Obviously a ground position changes so many things related to body position, power etc. I have chosen only a few techniques from the early belts for my students to work out with different partners. They determine what does and doesn't work and if we even need to apply these principles to the "on your back" position. Many of the things I have discovered came as the result of being in that position myself and responding naturally. Since I am familiar with the goals and methods of several significant ground focused styles, it helps me determine how such an attacker may react. However, making sure MY students are applying principles they KNOW and PRACTICE from this fighting range is more important than them actually knowing BJJ, Judo or Freestyle.

PEACE,
Ryan

[Lance C]

Hey Lance,
I can supply you with a pulpit if you want to preach some more!!! AMEN AMEN to what you have written.

Pain-Control-Escape
Nothing novel there, just making reference to the use of ACTUAL American Kenpo techniques. Although I too have studied wrestling and ground fighting extensively, the kenpoist in me strives to remain upright.
Example: Snapping Twig - Assume a bad position for yourself (on your back) and a good one for your opponent (Full Mount). The opponent could be choking you or raining down punches from this position.

PAIN = using a hip thrust try and bring the opponent closer to you and hopefully forcing them to create a brace with their hands on the ground. AS the opponent extends the arms to brace or EVEN possibly gives you a lazy punch, attempt PAIN compliance with the neutralization maneuver from Snapping Twig (OBVIOUSLY we have to remain free and fluid with these applications). One could continue to induce pain via a sweeping maneuver of the trapped arm with a crane beak as in the actual technique - this could give you an amount of control OR allow you to strike the opponent with the next move, but in modified fashion. In other words, continue the motion of your clear and strike the opponent's face, but NOT with a Raking Hammerfist...instead an inward claw or an Eagle's Beak to the temple. One could also use the OPPOSITE hand to include the THRUSTING HANDSWORD in the technique. It would cause PAIN and possibly keep enough DISTANCE between you and the opponent for you to effectively deliver the claw.
CONTROL = WHILE you are striking the opponent as described, you can use hip movement and thrusts to create imbalance and attempt the BRIDGE maneuver. The pain will hopefully give you CONTROL of a limb and thus make the BRIDGE a better possibility.
ESCAPE = Hopefully the PAIN + CONTROL will allow you to escape the down position or FORCE your opponent to remove himself from the mount.

The possibilities are ENDLESS, but you can see that I have tried to keep the spirit of the actual technique intact. Obviously a ground position changes so many things related to body position, power etc. I have chosen only a few techniques from the early belts for my students to work out with different partners. They determine what does and doesn't work and if we even need to apply these principles to the "on your back" position. Many of the things I have discovered came as the result of being in that position myself and responding naturally. Since I am familiar with the goals and methods of several significant ground focused styles, it helps me determine how such an attacker may react. However, making sure MY students are applying principles they KNOW and PRACTICE from this fighting range is more important than them actually knowing BJJ, Judo or Freestyle.

PEACE,
Ryan

Ryan,

Nice. Tried it out tonight (some different Kenpo techniques) and it works just wonderfully. I looked at stepping as doing the hip jump and you could make lots of things happen. By hip jumping (follow me on this) you are using a "reverse gravitational check"

Got my mental wheels turning from reading your posting. Thanks.

-Lance C

[Xperience]

Hey X,
I know you are a very intelligent and experienced practitioner, so I know you already know the answer to this question. They exaggerate claims like so many to draw people to their art. I have to admit, the Royce Grace line of BJJ has been extremely successful in convincing people they are THE BEST. Set up tournament fights that favor your style of fighting and hey, who can argue? Even as others have come in and discounted the claim of superiority, they continue to make it...that's what bugs me the most. When a guy comes in and takes the name "Gracie Killer" and doesn't lose a single fight to anyone in your fight camp...I mean, that should instill a dose of humility!!! I love some BJJ concepts!!! What i hate is the Brazilian Machismo mixed in (I don't know the Portuguese word for that).

One quick question. You said your start was in wrestling and BJJ, but I wasn't aware of too many Americans training ACTUAL BJJ that long ago. Did you mean japanese jiu-jitsu? Just a minor clarification.

Recently visited Sam Conver's school in Louisville, KY and had a great time. I gave a brief seminar on application of actual American Kenpo techniques from the ground. Pain-Control-Escape was my mantra and POOF...magically I ain't on the ground anymore. I guess since technically my opponent was on the ground the fight "ENDED" on the ground. Maybe we WILL go to the ground for a brief time, but I don't plan on staying there. I have many nasty ways of staying in my game plan...THANKS KENPO...YOU'RE THE GREATEST! :p

Hiya w-s ~
Well, to put it simply, I was in my mid-teens in the late '60s; started wrestling in school & practiced judo w/a couple of guys taking classes from an instructor on Berry Blvd (off 7th St in Louisville). Early '70s I studied/taught at Tracy's & culled as much info as I could from the infamous Gracie "Challenge Tape". Mid '70s I moved to S.CA for 2 yrs & worked with Lee/Inosanto, Parker's, Tracy's, (etc.) people; and a few people w/ValeTudo (no-holds-barred-BJJ) experience. The Gracies just taught/popularized BJJ in the US; They did not originate the art. As Dan Severen proved, BJJ has limited success against a good freestyle wrestler. That's the nutshell my friend.

;) X

[Xperience]

Hey Lance,
I can supply you with a pulpit if you want to preach some more!!! AMEN AMEN to what you have written.

Pain-Control-Escape
Nothing novel there, just making reference to the use of ACTUAL American Kenpo techniques. Although I too have studied wrestling and ground fighting extensively, the kenpoist in me strives to remain upright.
Example: Snapping Twig - Assume a bad position for yourself (on your back) and a good one for your opponent (Full Mount). The opponent could be choking you or raining down punches from this position.

PAIN = using a hip thrust try and bring the opponent closer to you and hopefully forcing them to create a brace with their hands on the ground. AS the opponent extends the arms to brace or EVEN possibly gives you a lazy punch, attempt PAIN compliance with the neutralization maneuver from Snapping Twig (OBVIOUSLY we have to remain free and fluid with these applications). One could continue to induce pain via a sweeping maneuver of the trapped arm with a crane beak as in the actual technique - this could give you an amount of control OR allow you to strike the opponent with the next move, but in modified fashion. In other words, continue the motion of your clear and strike the opponent's face, but NOT with a Raking Hammerfist...instead an inward claw or an Eagle's Beak to the temple. One could also use the OPPOSITE hand to include the THRUSTING HANDSWORD in the technique. It would cause PAIN and possibly keep enough DISTANCE between you and the opponent for you to effectively deliver the claw.
CONTROL = WHILE you are striking the opponent as described, you can use hip movement and thrusts to create imbalance and attempt the BRIDGE maneuver. The pain will hopefully give you CONTROL of a limb and thus make the BRIDGE a better possibility.
ESCAPE = Hopefully the PAIN + CONTROL will allow you to escape the down position or FORCE your opponent to remove himself from the mount.

The possibilities are ENDLESS, but you can see that I have tried to keep the spirit of the actual technique intact. Obviously a ground position changes so many things related to body position, power etc. I have chosen only a few techniques from the early belts for my students to work out with different partners. They determine what does and doesn't work and if we even need to apply these principles to the "on your back" position. Many of the things I have discovered came as the result of being in that position myself and responding naturally. Since I am familiar with the goals and methods of several significant ground focused styles, it helps me determine how such an attacker may react. However, making sure MY students are applying principles they KNOW and PRACTICE from this fighting range is more important than them actually knowing BJJ, Judo or Freestyle.

PEACE,
Ryan


Hi Guys ~
I don't teach a ground-fighting art (per se) as part of my curriculum, either. From white-belt on, I teach my students to break down their techniques, to glean the underlying principles, and to apply them from various positions (& circumstances); especially from the ground (adapt-for-ground). They learn that they can adapt many of the techniques to groundwork; but that their surface of support/leverage is behind/beside/in-front of them, rather than beneath their feet. I even include applying techniques when inverted (example: if you trip, fall backwards & roll up onto your shoulders; and your opponent is in hot pursuit, a boot-to-the-head is readily available).

:) X

[Xperience]

Hi Guys ~

The parlor tricks I'm referring to are like physical versions of the verbal BS we were discussing; examples: trick breaks, optcal illussions to illustrate chi, physical tricks to illustrate chi, etc. Got a mean 1" punch (actually a no-inch punch) myself; but then again that's technique, not a trick. Anyway, whatcha know?

;) X

[Lance C]

Hi Guys ~

The parlor tricks I'm referring to are like physical versions of the verbal BS we were discussing; examples: trick breaks, optcal illussions to illustrate chi, physical tricks to illustrate chi, etc. Got a mean 1" punch (actually a no-inch punch) myself; but then again that's technique, not a trick. Anyway, whatcha know?

;) X

I studied this extensively:

Yelling Knockout.
Hands Beside Ears No Touch Knockout.
Hands at 90 degree angles, rolling a Chi-Snowball

Most of the breaks we do are with concrete and wood that are untouched, although many people think it is a trick.

Here are some magic tricks that have made it to class (don't worry we do it Penn and Teller style, we start off with "it's a trick" or "it's an illusion of"

Biting a quarter in half.
Tying one's shoelaces while kicking.
Balducci Levitation
various invisible thread tricks to illustrate chi.
-dancing cane routine, coin / card levitations etc.

My favourite REAL thing I can do is karate chop (usually a left inward) a fork in half. Truth be known I actually hit the fork with a snapping motion, cheap enough fork they snap at the thin part of the neck. Get them 3/$1.00 at a Dollarama store.

There is the stop your pulse one. You sit down and concentrate with someone taking your pulse. You can stop it by meditating, although you really have a tennis ball in your armpit doing the chi-empowerment. There is a variation I saw that involved a rare earth magnet fake watch that you place near their watch and their watch stops too.

As long as man has lived there has been magicians, many martial arts masters use the same deception and same tricks (see mentalism) to prove their masterness.

-Lance