Useless Sparring?

[Theban_Legion]

The last time I sparred in a martial arts school was when I was 14 yrs old (about 15 years ago). I was in a TKD school at the time. The method of instruction that was used was to throw the white belts and orange belts into the 'ring' against brown, red, and black belts; it was a sink or swim approach to training. The very last match I was in, a brown belt axe kicked me in the head and knocked me out for a few seconds! No contact indeed!!

The Kenpo studio that I was later associated with never delved into the area of sparring even though the IKKA Belt Journals have sparring techniques listed for each level. The belt tests that I went through did not include sparring.

In the past 15 yrs I have had the unfortunate pleasure of discovering that real fights are quite different from sparring matches (obviously). I say "unfortunate" because I find fighting to be more animalistic than human; I say "pleasure" because I'm not too bad at it.

What does training in sparring acomplish that training with the what-if phase of a technique (or the equivilent in the EFS) does not accomplish?
Is there any particular reason that sparring should be left out of the curriculum at one kenpo/martial art school while being required at another?
Does sparring actually prepare anyone for a real fight?
What are the pros and cons of training with sparring?
I have begun to wonder if I have been missing out on something by not training with sparring. I look forward to your answer.

[administrator]

What does training in sparring acomplish that training with the what-if phase of a technique (or the equivilent in the EFS) does not accomplish?
The What If Phase is part of the formulation stages that lead to spontaneous self defense techniques. They are 'case studies', and shoud be treated like such. By understanding how teachniques work and how to develop answers to the What Ifs, you begin to show how much knowledge has been internalized. 'Sparring' is more dynamic than self defense techniques. Sparing can have limited parameters set for an ourcome base training, to no parameters to simulate full combat. The term 'sparring' limits the scope of what is being done. The is a stigma that leads one to believe 'sparring' as a game. The greatest outcome of 'combat training' (the term we prefer) is to be able to spontaneously be able to determine the outcome of a fight. Self defense techniques are tools to teach the student how to get to this level. Most never begin the journey.

Is there any particular reason that sparring should be left out of the curriculum at one kenpo/martial art school while being required at another?
Lots of reasons. Some schools are competitive and teach tournament sparring. Others are liability conscious and prefer not to spar to prevent lawsuits. Some instructors are not that good at sparring, and do not want to answer to the challenge of promising students, they are more worried about damaging their image.


Does sparring actually prepare anyone for a real fight?
'Combat Training' is a system of methods to prepare you for 'real' fights. Tournament Sparring will prepare you for tournaments.

What are the pros and cons of training with sparring?
'Combat Training' is an integral part of martial arts development. We have produced a 430 page guide to these topics that will greatly assist you in your development of the martial arts. See http://www.elite-fighters.com/seminars/series3.htm


Kevin Lamkin
Site Administrator

[Theban_Legion]

'Sparring' is more dynamic than self defense techniques. Sparing can have limited parameters set for an ourcome base training, to no parameters to simulate full combat. The term 'sparring' limits the scope of what is being done.

So basically, the word "sparring" has been tainted. When I (and most of the people I know) think of sparring, I think of a game that is played on the mat and nothing more.
Your saying that this isn't the case, yes?



Some instructors are not that good at sparring, and do not want to answer to the challenge of promising students, they are more worried about damaging their image.
:) Image conscious martial artist? Is there truly such a thing? :p



'Combat Training' is a system of methods to prepare you for 'real' fights. Tournament Sparring will prepare you for tournaments.

'Combat Training' is an integral part of martial arts development. We have produced a 430 page guide to these topics that will greatly assist you in your development of the martial arts. See http://www.elite-fighters.com/seminars/series3.htm
If I understand correctly, you have divided sparring into catagories: Tournament Sparring and Combat training? Each of these catagories pays dividends of skill in different ways and for different purposes depending on how one trains. I look forward to the seminar series.

[administrator]

So basically, the word "sparring" has been tainted. When I (and most of the people I know) think of sparring, I think of a game that is played on the mat and nothing more.
Your saying that this isn't the case, yes?
It is much more than a game. Most have focussed on the tournament aspect so much that it has given a stigma of only a game (unrealistic, at that). We prefer combat training over sparring and have broken the types of activities into various categories, including point sparring, full contact, and street combat.

Kevin Lamkin
site Administrator

[JKDooer]

It is much more than a game.


I agree. Sparring is as essential to martial arts as learning the tenses is to grammer. You can't have one without the other.

JK

[warrior-scholar]

I have looked over the Master of the Ring CD several times. Of particular interest to me is the discussion of tempo, rhythm etc. and how to maintain your own timing, while disrupting that of your opponent. I don't know if anyone is familiar with Steve (Sanders) Muhammed's BKF Kenpo material, but he makes a great deal of tempo, rhythm as well (he makes mention of African culture and its inherent musicality or at least concern for beat/tempo). Just wondering if anyone could make a connection or even cares to comment. Maybe no one cares and I will just sit here in limbo, waiting for enlightenment to hit me in the head. :p

[administrator]

Maybe no one cares and I will just sit here in limbo, waiting for enlightenment If you can do the Limbo, then you already understand Rhythm, Tempo, etc. ;)

I have always found that musicians learned how to 'spar' more effectively than non-musicians. If you are stuck with these concepts, you should consider studying a basic music class. We are also getting ready to release Vol. 1 of the AKLA Sparring Concepts (out of a 4 vol. set) It should be released in Feb. 2006). This series covers the concepts of Rhythm, Tempo, Cadence, etc.

Kevin Lamkin
Site Administrator

[warrior-scholar]

Instead of "Worthless Sparring", what about people who view Kenpo as worthless and sparring as the end all and be all. I am really struggling right now with someone who is hard-headed when it comes to viewing Kenpo as efficacious. He just will not listen to my arguments! All he wants to do is spar.

His argument comes across somewhat like the following:
You will not be able to pull off your techniques in a real fight if I just keep my distance and work on basic blocking, kicking and punching. It is almost a waste of my time to work on fancy techniques that I will never use. Of course, he is only working on Orange belt, so his knowledge of the system is very limited. I try to demonstrate the practical nature of learning techniques and how to work on integrating the principles etc. into sparring. It is not so much the technique for the technique's sake.

One thing that really bothers me is that he also wants to spar so that he can show all the other guys up. In other words, he thinks he is tougher and wants a chance to prove it, with or without Kenpo. This goes against everything I have taught in class. I really hate to tell him to take a hike, because he is also a friend of mine. How can I bring him back into the fold? Also, what percentage of the time should we work on sparring and sparring drills versus Kenpo technique, form/set, and basics training.

[administrator]

It's hard to break down the training time without knowing your structure of class. If you only have a 1-hour clas that meets twice a week, I would break it down in 20 minute intervals. Twenty for basics, 20 for technique and form, and 20 for interactive training; including bagwork and sparring. In this scenario, you will see that there is not much time for everything.

Normally, we do not allow free sparring until the student has achieved Orange Belt and has gone through a sparring primer. One mistake many schools makes is to say "sparring time", throw on the pads and go at it without any direction. Sparring should have definite goals. There are many limitation sparring drills that you will find in our Master of the Ring Manual. Wihtout utilizing a proper plan, your student is right, youwill not be able to apply kenpo movements in sparring.

If you friend does not want to stay to the plan, you need to offer him a 'special' sparring session between the two of you, so that you can show him what he needs to know. If you don't, you will lose the structure of your school.

Kevin Lamkin
Site Administrator

[warrior-scholar]

Thank you for the response. I have worked with them on the material from Master of the Ring, I guess this guy just has a thirst for blood. I tried to explain the importance of sparring with a purpose etc. You have confirmed that I was approaching this in somewhat of a correct manner. I did also mention the possibility of working one on one with me, but he doesn't seem interested (perhaps because he wants to "WIN" in sparring). Some people just don't want to be patient and understanding! I have to keep positive and run my class for the benefit of the group, not one individual.
Thanks

[warrior-scholar]

Interesting that you say that. He is my only student working on Purple, so I suggested he just enter a kickboxing tournament after learning some sparring tactics and drills. Well, lo and behold...he is fighting in Cincinnati next Saturday. I hope he does well, but still stress to him the limited nature of such contests. Far be it from me to hold people back from pursuing their interests! At least he is still working on the belt material...I think he just needed an outlet.

[Pomona BKF]

I feel that sparring done correctly can give you the confidence to perform on the streets when needed. I teach my students to take a punch and react off the initial contact, because there are going to be times where someone tries to hit you from behind and you don't get knocked out. In this situation you have to know how to react or in the case of an unpredictable street fight, which have no rules, you have to know how to respond. My adults deal a lot more with this aspect of sparring than my young warriors, but I do show them how to go toe to toe if need be, that's why I am glad they added continuous sparring to a lot of tournaments now. Continuous sparring is less predictable than point fighting and involves conditioning in a street fight that does not end quickly the fight goes to the best conditioned.

I have had plenty of street fights growing up and my training has helped me out tremendously. Even with weapons although I was scared my response to the threat kept me and others safe.