Extreme Differences

[warrior-scholar]

I am writing this thread on behalf of anyone currently instructing someone possessing extreme physical differences. By this I do not mean physical disability, but rather an individual who possesses a much greater or smaller height/weight/strength/girth (did I leave anything out) than the instructor. My question directly concerns teaching someone who is approximately 1 foot taller than myself (6'10"). The reality is that he will most likely never fight anyone at his height. For that matter he would probably never encounter anyone within 5 inches or so of his actual height. A five inch range for me would mean anyone between 5'4" and 6'2" (although one of my current students is 6'3"). How should I best train the tall student? He is probably going to be punching downward against most opponents. What sorts of adjustments should I make to maximize his potential? I have tons of questions and thoughts on specific issues, but I will just open the discussion up for everyone at this point.

[administrator]

I'm glad that you ask this. It shows that you do not use a cookie-cutter approach to teaching.

I have had the chance to teach several very tall men over the years. One was 7'2" and the were several in the 6'6"-6'8" range when I taught some guys from UofL's football team.

You must teach them to tailor the art to their needs. Obviously, the gootball guys needed to worry about guys their own size - or larger. For drills, they should focus on targets that are their own size, this will anatomically, allow their strength to develop to its highest potential. Applications sould always be used with a variety of partners.

Kevin Lamkin
Site Administrator

[Lance C]

Warrior-Scholar,

I hope to have some insight into being a big and tall, my fight weight (a few years ago) was 324 lbs and I am 2m tall (bit over 6'6")

The last 6 years in American Kenpo training had offered a few challenges and one is practicing some of the techniques and forms (with partners) and not having a suitable partner. There was occassionally the odd student that came in close to my size but no steady partners.

I do believe in working with different body types, certianly there is an educational advantage in a class that has large people. I find its sort of a confidence trainer for smaller people intimidated by size. It also allows students learn to adapt to size differences, there are advantages and disadvantages to big and tall.

Specifically in American Kenpo and some combatatives arts that I have studied (perhaps Elite-Fighters could have some insight into this) that some things DO NOT WORK WELL WHEN YOU ARE WAY BIGGER!!!

Some of the bear hug attacks are unrealistic, I have a chest that measures in the late 50 inches, add my arms in and most big people cannot get their arms around me, chokes, headlocks etc.. are very difficult to apply. (Had one guy climb my back to put on the sleeper with his knees mid back)

The key in my training is to practice Kenpo Normally as if everyone is my size, but learning with partners, I have a tendency to lower my techniques. I have punches that reach further than many student's kicks and being taller my shoulder high punches shoot out at the other person's head height.

Also my partners have to adapt for leg buckles and for some partners, they could not rear scoop kick high enough to hit my groin.

From personal experience there are some challenges that will be needed to be addressed. If the big student is more than tall, ie overweight like I am (although less than one would think) it is important to teach the legwork correctly. Often big and tall have ankle and or knee problems. I found forms IV and V were very difficult on the ankles while practicing, Long III with the Wings of Silk technique can easily put someone who goes through the footwork slopily onto crutches.

Some other things were, that studying Nunchaku set I and II, I had to build a set of "Conchaku" as in the book "Ed Parker's Guide to the Nunchaku" to my size proportions listed in the book, they are absolutely huge! But they work extremely well. In fact I have constructed many training weapons special for myself over the years to makeup for the size advantage.

Speaking as a boxer, teach the tall student to protect his under arms (picture someone in a boxing stance), it is way easy to blast an uppercut to the under-elbow part of the tricept to clear the way to body blows --liver shots are especially effective to take on the big guy. Also tall people sometimes monopolize on their reach, which has a warning that comes with it, sometimes they get stuck on the one fighting range. Kenpo flows through many ranges, but its hard to teach someone a different concept when they have found something that works well.

If you would like to share any size related successes or problems I would be most happy to read them, or brain storm it with you.


-Lance C

[Lance C]

Warrior Scholar,

(the last message I posted seemed not to have been saved)

I have some insight into the physical differences, I was a student and now a teacher and I am 2m tall (a bit over 6'6") and had a fight weight a bit back of 324lbs.

There certainly are some challenges teaching American Kenpo to students of significant size differences. Personally speaking if the tall person is also of some weight, watch the toes ankles and knees. Especially in the long form III, IV and V. (VI wasn't so bad)

Technique practice can be very challenging at times. I always practice my techniques ideally to refine the principles and concepts and how they manifest themselves in my "fight". However practically when there is a large difference (in my example a 56 inch chest) add my arms into that and most people cannot put me in bear hug arms pinned. Chokes, Headlocks and bear hugs are interesting to practice with partners who cannot apply them, or cannot follow up due to the fact you are too heavy to move.

Large fighters often monopolize on reach and this can be a hinderance to learning various distances of fighting. Also weight and strength can be hinderances to learning the "ju-jitsu" part of Kenpo, when muscling works, the sensitivity to leveraging or colapsing is not learned. (I have punches that reach further than some of my student's Kicks)

With the lance (pun not intended) and rod techniques they have to be practiced with refinement since a "high thrust" still puts the knife near your "chi" point where your body moves the slowest. Much like overhead clubs end up being in your face clubs due to the lack of drop in the arc.

Also to the footwork needs to be more careful and the proportions change. I have ripped willing opponents off their feet while practicing only to find not enough room and the increase in leverage and inertia of my body.

When I dummy for students they find that leg buckling is more difficult, as you have to aim at a different angle and I have had students that cannot rear scoop kick my groin, they cannot reach it!

An off topic, is that a big person demonstrating self defense against a little person looks demoralizing. When the rolls are switched people applaud.

I was asked by a women's anti-rape seminar teacher to be an attacker in class, I found that many young women were significantly frightened (at first) of working with me playing a role in a safe environment. However by the end of the class, I was getting my attitude tune up for the year.

If the student gets further into weapon's systems study such as the Nunchaku for 3rd Black, I highly recommend constructing a "conchaku" from "Ed Parker's Guide to the Nunchaku" the size is proportionate to the size of the person. I cannot use store bought chucks. The bow staff should also be slightly taller than the person. It seems to work much better.

For the Elite-Fighter's systems they use weapons that mostly are size irrelavant, but for size advantage, I use a longer walking cane, and have custom constructed many wooden training weapons to my preference.

If you have any successes you would like to share, or if you need brain storming I would like to hear from you.

-Lance C

[Xperience]

Hi Guys ~
In agreement w/Admin, having someone target their own height when they practice is a good rule-of-thumb. This gives them a natural median-level to work from. They can easily adjust their height in reference to the target from there. One thing about it, when tall guys learn to drop their height(& center of gravity), they can really get some horizontal extension(reach & ground-coverage). :) X

[stormshadow]

As far as height differences go, I am what one might consider a tall guy 6'3", and I have not as yet had a student taller than myself, but when I take a fighting position I usually find I'm pretty close to eye level to anyone of average height.

For taller guys there is an advantage of reach. If you continually remind your taller students to keep their back straight (good posture) and their knees flexed then that advantage can be used. If a tall guy gets in the habit of locking the knees he has both impared his base, making him easy to unbalance, and he has made obvious his best kept secret - that reach

Remind your taller students they have knees and to keep them bent. Tall guys can have a wider base without imparing their mobility. Teach him to sink on his standing leg when he is kicking, and to drop in his stance (bend the knees) when punching and he will discover a whole new world of power behind thoes strikes.

like they say the bigger they are the harder they fall. Teach a tall guy to utilize marriage of gravity with every movement and he will tap into power he never knew was there, just by bneding the knees and dropping the weight.

last point, don't let him short change his reach, push him with each punch and kick to full leg/arm extension and get him to retract quickly. caution him not to hyperextend his joints, but allow him to realize he can hit someone, of shorter height, before they can reach him.

[Tombo]

Stormshadow makes a good point in saying "push him with each punch and kick to full leg/arm extension and get him to retract quickly. caution him not to hyperextend his joints, but allow him to realize he can hit someone, of shorter height, before they can reach him."

I have noticed that many taller people get sloppy on the retraction (it isn't as if many practice retracting anyways) because they feel that their reach more than makes up for it.

I am on the shorter side of the spectrum at 5'8" as well as the beefier side (at 210-220 lbs). Here are some things that I have observed through training, sparring and helping others.

Training:

I have often found it more difficult for a shorter person to train with the taller person because as mentioned above the shorter attacker can not often apply the appropriate hold. While the taller attacker can get a better hold/leverage on the shorter defender.

As the attacker I take the mentality that if you are too tall for me to put a choke on you. Then I will simply bring you down to my level in order to do so. For example, if I want to put you in a stranglehold (Obscure Wing/Japanese Stranglehold) I will kick the back of your knee to drop your height and proceed to strangle you. Doing anything less makes me a bad partner because the person I am training with would be practicing in a completely unrealistic fashion with his attacker being overextended and overexposed. I would also disservice myself by practicing how to overexpose and overextend myself. The realistic approach of this also foster some creative thought processes for the taller defender and possibly answering some future "what if.." questions.

As the defender I make use of the height difference to provide myself more working space and to take the taller person off balance easier. The taller attacker on the other hand learns to be conscious of the space between him and his opponent as well as maintaining good balance/form. Now in situations where a taller person's leverage keeps me from doing what a technique requires, I now get to think outside the box and analyze the situation.

So in regards to training I think that pairing people up for optimal learning is just as important as intentionally making them work with a diverse set of people. One of the ways we handle that at our school sometimes is by occasionally rotating partners every couple minutes. So while you learn/practice it a bit with someone as close to you as possible, a bit later as the class is reviewing what was learned they will switch partners every so often so they get to work with someone taller, shorter, stronger, weaker, heavier, thinner etc... You learn a lot when you see things like a 5'4" 110 lb woman have to perform said technique on a 6' 255lb man and vice versa.

I think that for learning the basic movements, principles and flow of a technique matching your students up is ideal. However it is important to show that all isn't ideal and foster thinking by giving them something less than ideal. When you are stuck unable to match someone ideally take advantage of it to point out such things.

Sparring/Fighting:

I have always looked at this from the angle that the taller fighter's goal should be to keep his shorter opponent at range; where his weapons are most effective, the shorter opponent can't reach him and the shorter opponent needs to use more energy and cover more ground to get to him. The shorter fighter's goal should be to stay inside, up close and personal. This will check the taller fighter's depth, minimizing the effect of the taller person's strikes and keeping their body open to the array of up close and hard hitting strikes available to the kenpoist. Good body mechanics and some good twisting/untwisting can make these strikes pretty devastation especially if fired in rapid succession.

From a sparring perspective I try to use two strategies as often as possible.

1. Breaking rhythm and deceptive patterns: By not keeping a general rhythm and common patterns/repetitions my opponent has no clue where I am going and what I am doing. I can hide motion with motion. Using deceptive patterns and movements that mimic my coming closer helps give the taller person a feeling that I am in range or coming into range which I hope causes them to essentially strike at nothing thus wasting energy and tiring themselves out. Essentially, they can chase me all they want. Chasing with empty strikes is more tiring than dancing around like a chicken with its head cut off.

2. Riding your opponent's strike: This is something I learned from Joe Lewis. Just about everyone trains at striking faster/harder, but few actually train at retracting/recovering from their strikes as fast/safe/graceful as possible. Naturally after any strike thrown there is a retraction/recovery. Couple that with the fact that taller people, having more ground to cover, need a bit more time (no matter how miniscule) to recover from their attack, especially if they are tired tired/discouraged from #1. So as they recover from their strike, you explode inside with yours.

He demonstrated this in an impressive way. He put on a hand target and looked around for the quickest person in class. He then told the person to hit the pad as fast as possible as he explained the goal. Then he closed his eyes and based off nothing but the sound of the hit and the feel of it hitting actually had the target he had the target in the attacker's face *BEFORE* the attacker had fully retracted his punches.

Oh and if you are a glutton for punishment there is the tried and true Rocky Balboa strategy... if you don't mind taking a beating just step into the attack taking it in a non-scoring area if point sparring or a less damaging area if fighting in order to counter with your point scoring strike or damage inflicting counter.

Anyway, I hope this helps give a perspective from the short guy's point of view.